Keeping my fingers crossed for SSM ratification in Maine.

[onijitsu]

Originally Posted by Sixt

I don't consider all Christians small minded hate mongers because the Westboro Baptist Church is full of them.

That would be rather backward wouldn't it?

The actions of a fractional minority of proponents says nothing about the merit of their cause.

No. I simply pointed that part out as the thing which got me off the fence. And, if you really do take the time to study the matter, you'll find it wasn't just a few crackpot radical gays. This was happening on a grand scale.

You ought to have seen the fear which friends of mine posted about in their blogs and emails, after their churches were defaced, harassing phone calls were received, and they were generally given the cold shoulder, everywhere they went. One individual (an acquaintance) had his house spray-painted.

So, their tactics against the opposition. And, their underhanded political approach to the matter. That is what I oppose. I feel very strongly for civil rights (like freedom from hate crime-defined acts) and for the Constitutionally-defined process of Getting Things Done. Naturally, when someone wishes to blow that process off, I'm not going to be pleased.

Moreover... why is it that so many people here have wanted to demonize myself for even opposing any part of the SSM movement? I assume you have noted how many have jumped to the conclusion (without actually caring to know my real position) that I am anti-Gay. Assumption. Hatred. Why is there so much intolerance here for an individual who is not -- repeat, not -- spewing hateful, anti-gay rhetoric, but simply objects to certain arguments and certain methods being used?

[Shamantha]

Personally I think “marriages” should be kept as a social union…I don’t think they should have legal ramifications at all. I think when two people get married they should sign a civil union contract instead of a marriage license. I don’t think our government should recognize marriage itself as anything binding, instead view the civil contract as the binder.

I think anyone should be able to sign this civil contract, same sex or not.

[onijitsu]

Originally Posted by Shamantha

Personally I think “marriages” should be kept as a social union…I don’t think they should have legal ramifications at all. I think when two people get married they should sign a civil union contract instead of a marriage license. I don’t think our government should recognize marriage itself as anything binding, instead view the civil contract as the binder.

I think anyone should be able to sign this civil contract, same sex or not.

One thing, though? When people are married, they buy a marriage license and that tends to be it in many states. The person performing the ceremony signs off on the license, as do the witnesses. Many states don't even require a blood test anymore. And so, it isn't even treated like a typical "contract." One person cheating on the other is not cause for any alteration to the process, or strength in one person's position over the others. Or else, it ought to be treated as a common law breach of contract. But it isn't.

[onijitsu]

Originally Posted by lou002

There are facts of my life that are better left to mystery; but you can infer what you like. And thanks for now making me feel miserable.

I'm sorry about your feelings from whatever past occurrence(s) you're thinking about -- I'm sure these memories must be quite painful -- but I'm not responsible for your misery, no offense. Especially, since you are keeping them hidden. It's not like I was saying anything which psychically targeted these experiences. If you feel like they relate to this situation, then feel free to share them. I wouldn't piss on you for it. I can infer a number of possibilities. And some of these possibilities are something which I have had some personal experience with. The world can be a tough place. :-/

[Shamantha]

Originally Posted by onijitsu

One thing, though? When people are married, they buy a marriage license and that tends to be it in many states. The person performing the ceremony signs off on the license, as do the witnesses. Many states don't even require a blood test anymore. And so, it isn't even treated like a typical "contract." One person cheating on the other is not cause for any alteration to the process, or strength in one person's position over the others. Or else, it ought to be treated as a common law breach of contract. But it isn't.

I'm not 100% sure if I'm following the argument against it - you could buy a civil contract agreement, or if u wish call it a civil union license and charge a licensing fee. They can treat the person performing the union like they do a notary, it’s valid as long as they are licensed for it. Blood test…non issue, I don’t think that’s needed for other contracts…it only feels like you’re giving blood when you’re purchasing a car or a house Cheating would be a breach of contract (make it one of the contract’s terms) and it could be a reason for a split…just like in today’s marriages. I’m not sure where you are going with the rest of the statement…I’m sorry, I’m tired and I’m probably not reading it correctly.

[lou002]

Originally Posted by onijitsu

I'm sorry about your feelings from whatever past occurrence(s) you're thinking about -- I'm sure these memories must be quite painful -- but I'm not responsible for your misery, no offense. Especially, since you are keeping them hidden. It's not like I was saying anything which psychically targeted these experiences. If you feel like they relate to this situation, then feel free to share them. I wouldn't piss on you for it. I can infer a number of possibilities. And some of these possibilities are something which I have had some personal experience with. The world can be a tough place. :-/

Here, I'll make it simple for you. We're talking about same sex marriage right? I'm a proponent of this case.

Now, why do you think I could be a proponent of this. I'll say this much, arrows and i have nothing in common.

Now, after thinking on that and allowing the gears to turn, figure out why I'd be miserable for essentially taking something out...

[vladtepes]

Just to be clear, I am ok with gay marriage. It really doesn't affect me, but I can see the point being made that maybe a vote deciding that it should be illegal is a good indicator of it not being allowed in that state. I can see the point he is making, I don't agree with it, but there are a lot of opinions here that are different in all the forums. I think some have been too quick to be harsh and sure Onji probably brought it on him/herself a couple of times by being defensive, but then you are getting into chicken vs egg stuff. Was Onji being dramatic and defensive and being called out for it, or was he being overly defensive because people were overly critical after stating his opinion? I don't know, but I can at least see a valid point there and not just bs. Although, the chicken marrying was bs. I'll give you that, but it was later on. I'm not even sure that was Onji or someone else.

I also share concerns alluded to here about the persecuted finally getting their rightful representation, but then the weird attitude that they should pay it back. I kind of get that sense with the, "don't call that gay" commercials. Fine, homosexuals feel they are being disparaged when people use that term in that way. I understand, but why is it ok to make fun of the people doing that? Really, those kids were definitely not intentionally making anyone feel bad, so why show them being made fun of?

I mean sure if someone is being a dick just to be one, then I don't have much to say in their favor, but what this message says is, "People shouldn't use 'gay' in a way that describes something 'lame' (by the way this word can be equally offensive but is used as an example in those same commercials and here as to what you they really mean), but if they do its ok to make them feel bad about themselves instead of talking to them using reason and explanations."

In this way I sort of see the point. I have dealt with this kind of thing where I live where its over 60 percent minority but my work still will keep lazy workers because they are afraid of being sued. Its obviously only a few's fault, those who take advantage of claiming racism where there is none, but it really undermines you when you are trying to do a good job. I have even dealt with a personal situation at work of being transferred somewhat due to race and racial comments.

Its the same mindset, suddenly it's ok to demean others when you think they have demeaned you even if they did it unintentionally or not at all.

Again, I can only see the point and argument and can see its not specifically anti-gay. I agree actually that this issue is on the same area as black civil rights, not the same level but almost the same situation. Not like it matters the difference, though, it's almost negligible.

[onijitsu]

Originally Posted by lou002

Here, I'll make it simple for you. We're talking about same sex marriage right? I'm a proponent of this case.

Now, why do you think I could be a proponent of this. I'll say this much, arrows and i have nothing in common.

Now, after thinking on that and allowing the gears to turn, figure out why I'd be miserable for essentially taking something out...

Please clarify? I don't get the last part... taking something out?

Thanks for saying so though, Lou. And I'll reaffirm: I'm not against gayness. Nor, am I really all that against gays getting married. I am against the methodology of the GBLT alliance and the "Progressives" who support it.

[onijitsu]

Originally Posted by vladtepes

yadda

Thanks for at least giving me a fair shake. Really. =)

[lou002]

/facepalm

yknow what, oni, forget it. if you can't get what I'm trying to say, just forget it.